Mark Driscoll on Joel Osteen: humble but firm

This video really speaks for itself. It’s 10 minutes long, but worth the time, especially if you’ve been thinking about buying Joel’s new book, “Becoming a better you”:

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12 Responses

  1. I can’t say that I am a Mark Driscoll fan. I actually find him arrogant. I’ve now heard him speak twice and both times his focus was on downing others.

    As for his argument against what Joel Olsteen had to say, I think he is a bit off target. Olsteen did not say that we are wrong if we are “healthy, wealthy, and wise”. I heard him say that we were designed to be that way.

    To me, the fact that Jesus suffered through things does not necessarily mean that I am to suffer through those exact things. I especially feel like he is off on the point he makes about us being anxious or worrying. He’s right, Christ did suffer great anxiety before going to the cross, but did he not also tell us not to worry that God knows us, and loves us, and that he will take care of us(Matthew 6).

    I’m not saying that people do not worry. I’m not saying that people do not suffer injustices. I’m not saying that poor people and homeless people are in the wrong. I’m just saying that just because things are this way does not necessarily mean that this is how God designed it to be.

    I’m sure Mark Driscoll has a lot of great things to say, and he is doing great things for the Kingdom. I look forward to actually seeing/hearing them.

  2. The way your blog keeps up with comments just made me laugh.

    Shannon Smith on Mark Driscoll on Joel Osteen

    I pictured some sort of wobbly tower where Mark Driscoll is on Joel Olsteen’s shoulders and I am on Mark Driscoll’s shoulders.

  3. I think that, from a pastor perspective, Mark is shepherding his sheep. He is being honest enough to say that suffering will come, if you are a Christian (and even if you aren’t). There are so many times when the Apostle Paul told us that in order to be glorified with Christ, we WILL suffer.

    Osteen doesn’t prepare his people to suffer. When his sheep encounter suffering, they will doubt the goodness of God.

  4. Maybe. As I have said, I have not heard Driscoll or Olsteen speak much, but I could see it a couple ways.

    Olsteen’s clip could be taken as “God doesn’t want you to suffer. If you are suffering you are not ‘living right’.” I don’t think that was his point, but I could see how it could be taken that way. Some commenters on YouTube suggested that later in that sermon, Olsteen talked about how “we live in a fallen world, and how bad things happen to good people every day.”

    Are you suggesting that on the whole “Osteen doesn’t prepare his people to suffer,” or are you referencing the clip shown here? It seems a bit preposterous to think that Joel Olsteen has that much control over his congregation, both live and via radio and television, that they would not expect to suffer. I mean, they do live in the real world. Suffering surrounds us.

    Taken to the equal, yet opposite, extreme, I think Driscoll’s response could be taken as “God suffered. So, God wants you to suffer.” I also don’t think that was his point, but again if you are just going to look at what he says, I think it could be taken that way.

    Honestly, I think both men have great points or even a a great point, i.e they could be making the same one. God is good. Bad stuff happens. God is still good.

  5. Paul says to the Romans in Chapter 8:12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

    18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

    It seems to me that Osteen’s overarching message is based on hope that exists here and now. I don’t think that’s what Paul meant here, or what Jesus meant. Our hope and joy are in the resurrection – not in the best life we can have here and now. We can “bloom where we are planted”, but if that blooming doesn’t point to the hope of the resurrection, it is an empty facade.

    Phil. 1:27-30
    Romans 8
    2 Corinthians 1
    Phil. 3:8-11

    John Piper does a wonderful job of pointing people to the reason behind Jesus’ big demands of rich people by pointing to this scripture:
    Hebrews 10:34-36
    34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
    “They destroyed my house and took my possessions. PRAISE GOD! I’ve got a house where Jesus lives!”

    This kind of thinking is so backward to the staggering nature of the heavenly reward God has called us to in heaven. Unfortunately, the idolatry of my own pleasure in “stuff” diminishes the glory of that reward and therefore causes me to engage in a level of faith and trust in God’s goodness that reaps little reward in heaven.

    I think the big thing I want to be exposed about the Osteen kind of “happiness” gospel is that is FAKE, because it doesn’t bank on JESUS ALONE.

    Sola Fide
    Sola Gratia
    Sola Scriptura
    Solus Christus
    Soli Deo Gloria

  6. I should re-titled this post: “What happens when a smart, socially-minded follower of Jesus who goes to a Don Miller-esque emerging church and a very orthodox seminary student/Acts 29 church planting lead worshiper get to talking about Joel Osteen and Mark Driscoll.”

    We could make things really interesting and throw Brian McLaren and Rob Bell into this conversation, but then I’d probably have to start mediating :0)

    I’d like to throw my 2 cents in this weekend.

    Gotta work for now…

  7. Let me apologize if what I have said thus far is communicated as harsh arrogant immaturity. It probably is arrogant immaturity. For that, I apologize.

  8. What do you see Olsteen’s gospel “banking” on if not Jesus alone?

    If not “here and now”, then where and when? Where and when do we get to live in the hope that comes from the death of our Saviour? Is it possible to experience heaven on Earth? Or, Is heaven a place we get to go to at some point? Does Christ come here to us to establish his kingdom, or do we go “there” to be with Him?

    NOTE: I’m enjoying this discussion. I am neither arguing for or against Joel Olsteen or Mark Driscoll. I am merely in search of answers.

  9. I think that the definition that I have of enjoying the here and now and the definition that Osteen has would be different.

    Suffice it to say that my definition would be that our joy in the here and now is in HOPE. “the creation was subjected to futility IN HOPE that it would be renewed from its decay” (my paraphrase)

    Hope in the resurrection, hope in deliverance from sin. Hope in Jesus.

    But not hope for hope’s sake. Not being happy for happiness’ sake.

  10. Alrighty gents, I finally have a half hour to try and add my two cents here, but I’m going to do it as a new post…

  11. […] anyone visiting, this is my response to the discussion from a previous post. Read the comments there, and the title will make sense […]

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